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Go!
7,802 Comments
Hi Jeff
Is there a way to see what java version (jdk) is supported bij sql developer. I’m now looking for 23.1 version and we want to try and us JAVA_VERSION=”17.0.8.1″ as it is a standard within the company. Is there a support matrixs for sql developer vs jdk java version)
So I’m basically asking what java versions are supported by sqldeveloper.
The SQL Developer download page clearly states, we only support 11.
We’re working on an update right now that will bring in support (and requirement) for Java 17.
Hi Jeff,
Greetings
First thanks for your excellent blogs on client tools and ORDS, helpful!
how to Preserve oauth (client id, client_secrets) in TEST database when refreshing from PROD
Facts:
I have PROD ATP database P1 with schema XXICS with its own oauth (client id, client_secrets).
I have TEST ATP database T1 with schema XXICS with its own oauth (client id, client_secrets).
Process:
We refresh this schema XXICS in TEST T1 i.e. expdp from PROD P1 and impdp into TEST T1.
But this overwrites our ORDS(Modules,Privileges,Roles) and OAUTH(client_id,secrets) information from PROD in P1.
Modules, Privileges and Roles using export schema (as mentioned in your blog) can be taken care i.e. export schema before running impdp for refresh.
After importing this ORDS export using import – I have to rerun – create client, grant role – and then API works.
OR I have PROD P1 client_id and client_secret.
But then I have new OAUTH(client_id,secret).
How to keep that client_id,clent_secret from TEST T1 as is i.e. preserve using some kind of export and import ?
Thanks in advance
Regards
atul
You can export the clients using ORDS_METADATA.ORDS_EXPORT.EXPORT_OAUTH_CLIENT()
DECLARE
P_CLIENT_NAME VARCHAR2(200);
P_INCLUDE_SECURITY_DEFINITIONS BOOLEAN;
v_ReturnValue CLOB;
BEGIN
P_CLIENT_NAME := NULL;
P_INCLUDE_SECURITY_DEFINITIONS := NULL;
v_ReturnValue := ORDS_METADATA.ORDS_EXPORT.export_oauth_client(P_CLIENT_NAME => P_CLIENT_NAME,
P_INCLUDE_SECURITY_DEFINITIONS => P_INCLUDE_SECURITY_DEFINITIONS);
DBMS_OUTPUT.PUT_LINE('v_ReturnValue = ' || v_ReturnValue);
END;
/
However –
* The script does not export client_secret.
You would want to update the secret between your TEST and PROD environments anyway, as it would give your testers access to your production APIs otherwise.
Thanks Jeff that was quick. Thanks again
Running a query in SQL Developer. One of the columns returned is County. Would like to export results into a single Excel file with a separate worksheet for each county. Any way to do this? I have read only access to the DB.
Thanks
you’re not going to be able to do that…if you could create views in the database, you could, but looks like you’re gonna need to build an excel macro to do it – should be possible with some vb script though…or even python?
Hi Jeff, first of all thank you for this page and your time. My question is that I show Oracle SQL Developer 23. 1, and all other versions of SQL Developer support ending as of 12/2024. Any reason for that and any also news on if either we will have a new version released or have the support date extended?
TIA,
Syed
We’re working on a release now.
We shortened the support windows from 5 years to 18 months for all our products, ORDS, sqlcl, SQLDev, vs code extension, data Modeler, and also apex
Hi Jeff,
I have found that “set sqlformat json” or “set sqlformat json-formatted” does not return all the data when selecting from a clob column.
Interestingly “set sqlformat xml” does return all the data
Is this expected?
Below is a test case to reproduce the issue.
Thanks,
Dan
DROP TABLE DAN_CLOB;
CREATE TABLE DAN_CLOB
(ID NUMBER NOT NULL ENABLE,
CONTENT CLOB
) SEGMENT CREATION IMMEDIATE
PCTFREE 10 PCTUSED 40 INITRANS 1 MAXTRANS 255
NOCOMPRESS LOGGING
STORAGE(INITIAL 65536 NEXT 1048576 MINEXTENTS 1 MAXEXTENTS 2147483645
PCTINCREASE 0 FREELISTS 1 FREELIST GROUPS 1
BUFFER_POOL DEFAULT FLASH_CACHE DEFAULT CELL_FLASH_CACHE DEFAULT)
TABLESPACE USERS
LOB (CONTENT) STORE AS SECUREFILE (
TABLESPACE USERS ENABLE STORAGE IN ROW CHUNK 8192
NOCACHE LOGGING NOCOMPRESS KEEP_DUPLICATES
STORAGE(INITIAL 106496 NEXT 1048576 MINEXTENTS 1 MAXEXTENTS 2147483645
PCTINCREASE 0
BUFFER_POOL DEFAULT FLASH_CACHE DEFAULT CELL_FLASH_CACHE DEFAULT)) ;
REM INSERTING into DAN_CLOB
SET DEFINE OFF;
Insert into DAN_CLOB (ID,CONTENT) values (7,’Dear Customer, (line 1)
Some text.. (line 2)
Some text… (line 3)
Some text…. (line 4)
Some text….. (line 5)’);
commit;
clear screen
set echo on
set sqlformat json
select * from dan_clob;
set sqlformat json-formatted
select * from dan_clob;
set sqlformat xml
select * from dan_clob;
And the results
SQL> set echo on
SQL> set sqlformat json
SQL> select * from dan_clob;
{“results”:[{“columns”:[{“name”:”ID”,”type”:”NUMBER”},{“name”:”CONTENT”,”type”:”CLOB”}],”items”:
[
{“id”:7,”content”:”Dear Customer, (line 1)\n Some text.. (line 2)\n\t\t “}
]}]}
SQL>
SQL> set sqlformat json-formatted
SQL> select * from dan_clob;
{
“results” : [
{
“columns” : [
{
“name” : “ID”,
“type” : “NUMBER”
},
{
“name” : “CONTENT”,
“type” : “CLOB”
}
],
“items” : [
{
“id” : 7,
“content” : “Dear Customer, (line 1)\n Some text.. (line 2)\n\t\t ”
}
]
}
]
}
SQL>
SQL> set sqlformat xml
SQL> select * from dan_clob;
<![CDATA[Dear Customer, (line 1)
Some text.. (line 2)
Some text… (line 3)
Some text…. (line 4)
Some text….. (line 5)]]>
My first thought is to make sure LONG is set high enough to retrieve the entire LOB
SQL> select * from dan_clob;
ID CONTENT
_____ ___________________________________________________________________________________
7 Dear Customer, (line 1)
Some text.. (line 2)
Some textà (line 3)
Some textà. (li
Elapsed: 00:00:00.159
SQL> set long 1000
SQL> /
ID CONTENT
_____ ______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
7 Dear Customer, (line 1)
Some text.. (line 2)
Some textà (line 3)
Some textà. (line 4)
Some textà.. (line 5)
And once I do that, JSON sqlformat seems to work just fine.
SQL> set sqlformat json
SQL> /
{"results":[{"columns":[{"name":"ID","type":"NUMBER"},{"name":"CONTENT","type":"CLOB"}],"items":
[
{"id":7,"content":"Dear Customer, (line 1)\nSome text.. (line 2)\nSome textà (line 3)\nSome textà. (line 4)\nSome textà.
. (line 5)"}
]}]}
Elapsed: 00:00:00.011
SQL>
Hi Jeff,
Is it possible for SQL data modeler when generating DDL for a user definition to allow editioning for that user? E.g.,
ALTER USER ENABLE EDITIONS;
I cannot find this in the user properties nor a way of extending the DDL generation to include it.
Also when is the next version of SQL data modeler going to be released?
Many thanks,
Mark.
I don’t think so, you’d have to look at the custom DDL feature.
Hi Jeff,
Thanks for the update.
Is this something (along with wider edition-based redefinition support such as granting privileges to packages) that could be added to this product?
In the meantime, do you have any practical examples on the “custom DDL” feature that would help in my use case?
Many thanks,
Mark.
How to add DDL to your generated scripts.
More support for EBR isn’t on the immediate roadmap, but that doesn’t mean it couldn’t happen.
Hi Jeff,
Do you have an update. Sorry for chasing.
Thanks
Mark.
Sorry I just now noticed your follow-up.
Thanks for the link and update on EBR.
It looks like custom DDL is only available for tables. For this feature to be useful in my use case, I would need the Custom DDL option in the User/Schema properties panel. However, this would only be a workaround and probably more complex than putting the “Enable Edition” option on the user property page.
Not sure if this is the correct place to put this, but I would like to see more EBR options natively supported within the Modeler tool. As this is an Oracle-only feature (and an excellent one too), it is unlikely to be supported by other case tools making this the only real choice for database designers like myself.
Top features I would like to see:
* Ability to create a user and be able to have the option to enable it for editioning.
* The ability to grant a non-identified role to a PL/SQL unit (package/procedure/function/type) to use CBAC.
Nice to have:
* Ability to create an edition for the model.
* The ability to mark a PL/SQL package as using definer or invoker rights.
* The ability to define accessibility clauses.
Many thanks,
Mark.
EBR isn’t popular enough to justify the work at this point.
However, the best place to raise your enhancement requests is via My Oracle Support. If enough people ask for something, then we can add it to the project queue.
Hello Mr. Smith,
One of my collegs ords developers asked me about the p_priority to ORDS.DEFINE_TEMPLATE parameter. The documentation only says: “The priority for the order of how the resource template should be evaluated: 0 (low priority. the default) through 9 (high priority).”
I googled it, I even searched in Oracle metalink, but nowhere did I find the use of this parameter with a value other than the default 0. Can you give me some more information on the use of this parameter?
Template patterns can be overloaded, if ords finds a request that can be mapped to more than one endpoint, this priority picks ‘the winner.’
So, avoid conflicts, and you have nothing to worry about.
Hi,
I’m using SQL Developer to query user_source. The text field is truncated to 80 characters. How can I change my settings so that, say, 200 characters are shown in my output?
Thanks.
We don’t truncate varchar2(4000)s to 80 characters, I can’t reproduce what you’re reporting. Are you sure the grid isn’t just hiding the text, and you need to double-click to get the full cell editor?
If you’re looking at a LONG, then you need to use SET LONG 1000, for example. But we should always print the entire varchar2 or clob. I’m in version 23.1, by the way.
Hi Jeff,
I am facing an issue when I try to modify a view . The error message is” modification is not supported for view objects whose source exceeds 32kb ”
I am running a shared Citrix SQLDEVELOPER version 21.4.0.346
Thanks inadvance.
Nabil.
As the error implies, the GUI component can’t handle src text that large, so instead you’ll need to edit the view via SQL in the SQL Worksheet. You can get the source SQL for the view from the VIEW page, so copy/paste it over to a worksheet, update as necessary, and then run via ctrl+enter.
Thank you Jeff for your quick response.
As a DBA, I know the workaround , however, it is difficult to change user habits ;).
I don’t get any errors if I run SQLdeveloper on my laptop. The problem only occurs on Citrix.
I was just wondering if there was a possibility of modifying SQLDeveloper configuration parameter (java memory…).
Thank you anyway
It’s old JDeveloper code – no easy workaround. Another reason we’re rebuilding the house in VS Code!
HiI Jeff
I have a question about showing xml content in a query. We know that the older version had a bug concerning this .
We performed a transition in tools to sql developer 23.1 (build 097.1607) in combination with a instant client basic windows 21.10
and for JDK we went with openjdk 17+35 for windows x64.
But we are unable to show xml content in a query in the datagrid.
Is there a way to have a query show its xml value in stead of NULL . The option to show xml in the database – advanced tab is selected and activated with a restart of sql developper. This issue manifest itself on win 10 and win 11.
OpenJDK isn’t supported and neither it Java 17, although our next update will update to Java 17
Can you give an XML query example?
Jeff
This is the current used sql
select sequpdmsglog,status,usr,dat,message,answer from geoms.dms_updmsglog
in the table structure message and answer are “MESSAGE” “SYS”.”XMLTYPE” , “ANSWER” “SYS”.”XMLTYPE” => both securefile clob
even when we open the tabel via the tree browser those 2 fields show as (null)
I see the same, as soon as I unset the ‘use oracle client’ option, everything comes back as expected.
My test case:
SELECT XMLELEMENT ("Emp", XMLATTRIBUTES (
e.employee_id as "ID",
e.first_name ||' ' || e.last_name AS "name"))
AS "result"
FROM employees e
WHERE employee_id > 200;
Jeff
We can confirm the same result. Not using the instantclient allows us to see the xml content. Problem is that without the instantclient we can’t create sso connections. And we need both. After checking the current java we are using I can confirm that this is our current JAVA_VERSION=”11.0.18.0.2″. . Is there a way to make this work with the use of an instantclient .
The strang thing about this all is ,I’m getting reports on win 11 that some users can use the instantclient and still see the
xlm values. Where others can’t .
How do you mean you can’t create SSO connections?
Jeff
When we deactivate the usage of the instant client in our sql developer and try to open a previously working os connecting to a database we get an error that password is wrong.
In effect the sso connection doesn’t want to open.
Where as when the instantclient is checked to be used ,it does work , But then the xml is empty in the query
We have oci thick driver checked in our config.
The instant client field is filled with the following value :
Instant Client: file:/C:/Program Files/sqldeveloper/instantclient/
W have put the instant client under the sql developper folder to keep cohesion between the different parts
-Mike de Groote
sso = wallet, not sso = single sign on?
sso wallets totally are supported by straight up jdbc driver (thin connections)
But rather go down that path – I suggest you open a Support ticket with MOS, so they can properly allocate the resources needed to get you going.
The path going forward is NO CLIENT, ONLY JDBC, for simpler rigs/setups, with full functionality. That is the future…and it should be mostly ready right now.
Jeff
with SSO I meant single single on (os login in the connection menu). we use the instant client and the oci thic driver to make these os (single sign on) connections possible. But that makes the xml results come back as NULL
Hi Jeff ,
I have a question in relation to the use of F10 (explain plan) As we implement least privileges principle, we try not to provide to much privs to a user. But we can across an issue and I hope you can help.
When press F10, get an explain plan, it reports with ORA-01039 insufficient privileges.
But when using a query to get the explain plan it works fine.
So we are wondering which privileges are required to be able to make use of the F10 button?
Was not able to find this in the documentation.
Thanks.
You can see what we’re doing in the Log, Statements panel.
Hi Jeff,
I want to reorganize a database with apex/ords installed in it. The reason is that we would like all our tablespaces (including SYSTEM/SYSAUX) to be of type bigfile. So general idea was to user full expdp and full impdp. However, this is not really working for an account like ORDS_METADATA.
Looking at the source database I tried to look at the ords components using sqlcl with sys as sysdba as logon. Then i see:
SQL> rest modules
NAME PREFIX STATUS ITEMS_PER_PAGE
—- —— —— ————–
SQL>
EMPTY!
But a “rest schemas” is resulting in a list of enabled owners.
When i connect to the database using sys as sysdba (using sqlplus) i can do:
***
SQL> select ords_metadata.ords_admin.INSTALLED_VERSION() from dual;
ORDS_METADATA.ORDS_ADMIN.INSTALLED_VERSION()
——————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————–
19.4.0.r3521226
***
but trying to export results in:
***
SQL> select ords_metadata.ords_admin.export_schema() from dual;
select ords_metadata.ords_admin.export_schema() from dual
*
FOUT in regel 1:
.ORA-00904: “ORDS_METADATA”.”ORDS_ADMIN”.”EXPORT_SCHEMA”: ongeldige ID
***
Is this due to an somehow invalid install of ORDS in the source database?
Where should i look for the cause and how in general should I migrate my database including ORDS?
kind regards, Marc
Data Pump isn’t a great way to work with apex and ords in general…
Your version of ORDS is 5 years old, so you have maint work to do anyway.
How many rest apis do you have that need rescuing?
Hi Jeff,
if rest apis is equivalent to enabled schemas….around 5-10.
I will inform our project/customer on using the older versions of Apex/ORDS. Thanks for bringing that detail under my attention.
Kind regards,
Marc
Hi Jeff,
A question about paging in ORDS and do I need to use analytic functions?
I’m using ORDS 21.4.3. I’ve got a GET handler with a SQL statement. I’ve defined it as a ‘Collection Query’ with pagesize 1000. At the moment it just has a simple sql statement in it extracting rows from a single static Materialized View.
I’ve read your article about ‘how-paging-works-in-ords’ using analytic functions to ensure objects do not “slip” between pages as the queries are executed. So it it still the case with the version of ORDS I’m using that I need to wrap my simple sql query with this:
SELECT *
FROM (
SELECT Q_.*,
ROW_NUMBER() OVER(
ORDER BY 1
) RN___
FROM (
) Q_
)
WHERE RN___ BETWEEN :1 AND :2
Dan
nooo…we do that for you
so you defined your SQL query simply as ‘select whatever you want from table’ – then we behind the scenes amend the query for paging.
Jeff,
Are you sure that you do not need an ORDER BY anywhere? How does APEX guarantee that you don’t get duplicate/missing data when paging over large data sets? My only thought is that perhaps in APEX you generate code that uses ROWID…
In https://www.thatjeffsmith.com/archive/2023/11/rest-api-paging-results-of-a-pl-sql-refcursor/ you mention that you should have this – though you missed it out in your work. The ORDER BY also mentioned in Best Practices documnet.
There’s no relation between apex and ORDS here.
Sorry – ignore the APEX reference.
Question still stands though. Where does an ORDER BY statement get applied – and how is this done? Or isn;t one needed?
We don’t add an order by unless you ask for it via query parameter
Issue is: when doing paginating on a large data set I believe that somewhere in the query an ORDER BY is required so that a consistent guaranteed non-duplicate data set is delivered.
The original post and your response suggests that some magic does this – when stated Oracle position is that the order in which rows are returned is not guaranteed without one – notwithstanding that it may ‘probably’ be ok.
Really just need some clarification. Or is this an AskTom question?
Go do a session trace, you’ll see what’s happening.
hello,
I’m using SQL Developer v23.1.1.345 on Windows.
Can you give me an example (or hint, link) how to use “System Property” at configuring an external tool?
Especially I would like to use the system clipboard as parameter.
I found only this (https://mikesmithers.wordpress.com/2019/11/19/configuring-external-tools-in-sqldeveloper/) to this topic, it is very useful but does not give any hint for using a “System Property”.
Thank you in advance!
Hi Jeff,
Does the SQL Developer extension for VSCODE supports running utplsql tests, coverage, etc?
I like to use sql developer tools to connect to the database and for modeling, but my teammates complain about it not being responsive or modern enough.
There’s no explicit support for utplsql, YET. But we’re gonna publish APIs the project maintainers can use to extend our features.
Of course utplsql uses plsql to test plsql and our extension supports running plsql and SQL scripts…
Hey Jeff,
I would like to use SQL Developer to test my packages with utplsql. What is your development flow to add or modify packages, procedures, and functions and applying them using liquibase? I know liquibase exports them as xml files. But how do you add or modify packages and test them in a way that you can apply them to a different database using liquibase? I have seen some people treat packages, procedures, and functions as code. Different from we normally treat tables and views!
Plsql is code, and should be treated as such. Our liqiibase integration generates files you can put through your pipelines to build and deploy environments.
Right now this is all done via our cli (sqlcl), but next step is to build a proper experience in VS Code with our new SQLDev extension.
Jeff,
I just created a JSON autonomous database for APEX development. The APEX object browser in the workspace looks very similar to the relational database objects. It has tables, views, etc. Does it mean that I can treat it as a relational database and oracle takes care of the translation layer? What are your thoughts on the JSON database for APEX development? pros, cons, limitations. etc.
Looking forward to reading your thoughts!
It’s an Oracle Database:)
But relational features are limited to a certain amount of storage space (see terms), as the JSON service is cheaper than a transaction processing (atp) service.
A traditional apex app doesn’t normally fit into here unless you’re also working completely based on JSON objects and collections – SQL or no SQL.
Hi Jeff –
Would it be possible to get a wallet connection to the database with an APEX workload type? The JSON and ATP workload types have a wallet connection which allows me to connect with sqlcl and import and export schema changes with liquibase. It would make APEX development on relational databases more affordable for thouse who cannot pay for the ATP or ADW
The apex service by design doesn’t support sqlnet connectivity…it’s the tradeoff for the vastly reduced rate were offering to run your apps on a hosted, exadata-powered environment.
Howry Jeff, does OCI have a more affordable pricing for non-profit or tiny businesses.? There is a lady in my neighborhood that makes and sells cakes. I would like to create simple APEX app where her customers can place an order of the cake, maybe connect it to stripe, send an email, approve and reject orders, send invoices and receipts, etc. This lady is a single mom and struggles.
The Workload type: APEX is $264 a month
The Workload type: JSON is $264 a month
The Workload type: Transaction Processing is $264 a month
She cannot paid that. I cannot paid that. I think that $0 to $60 would be perfect. I get the security and autonomous part, but it still needs to be more affordable for people without resources.
I would love to know your thoughts on this!
Hello Jeff,
Thanks for delivering the message about updating APEX in the container image. Question about installing utPLSQL in the cloud for development. I normally install it using sqlcl. I haven’t tried installing it using sqlplus because of the setup slqplus needs. Is one faster than the other? Is there known performance difference between the two?
I’m the product manager for SQLcl, I’m going to tell you to use SQLcl. It has more Cloud support/features than SQLPlus.
Performance of, what? SQLcl takes a second or 2 to startup, that’s the main perf difference.
Hey Jeff, can someone at APEX push for this image to have the latest version of APEX. I am not asking for the latest patch. Just to stay current. Right now it is APEX 23.2 .https://container-registry.oracle.com/ords/ocr/ba/database/adb-free
ADB-FREE is a podman image that has the same setup of the OCI Autonomous Transaction Processing Database. It would be great for APEX development locally. The issue is that it has 23.1.5. I found this image months later after I started developing on OCI. I need the 23.2 features.
Please, talk to the right people so that they update this for the APEX community!
Message delivered. Note it’s not the apex team that manages that container.
Hi Jeff –
Is “set define off;” functional in SQL Developer for VS Code? I’m unable to get it to work. I’m on 23.4.1 and latest VS Code. See below for VS Code version.
I’ve got “set define off;” in my SQL Developer for VS Code startup script (and other entries in the startup script are effective), but “set define off” appears to be ignored. If I “SELECT ‘ab&c’ FROM dual;” for example and hit CTRL-ENTER, a tab titled “Substitutions” opens up requiring me to enter a Value for Name “c”. I tried executing “set define off;” as part of a combined statement with my SELECT, but no joy there either.
Related (perhaps) links: https://forums.oracle.com/ords/apexds/post/set-define-off-issue-5720 and https://forums.oracle.com/ords/apexds/post/literal-in-the-query-text-causes-sql-dev-for-vscode-to-pro-0274#comment_20894363106257450555707506781508498896
Thanks!
-Frank.
ps. SQL Developer for VS Code is AWESOME. I recognize the kinks are still being worked out, but it looks great so far.
VSCode:
Version: 1.86.2 (user setup)
Commit: 903b1e9d8990623e3d7da1df3d33db3e42d80eda
Date: 2024-02-13T19:40:56.878Z
Electron: 27.2.3
ElectronBuildId: 26908389
Chromium: 118.0.5993.159
Node.js: 18.17.1
V8: 11.8.172.18-electron.0
OS: Windows_NT x64 10.0.19045
Hi Jeff –
Just pinging this to the top of your list, since I don’t see a reply and I’m still hitting this issue with sql developer for vs code version 23.4.1: February 2024. I think is the latest release.
thanks for all that you do!
-Frank.
Interactive scripts are gonna be a problem until probably the June release, so keep using sqlcl (directly) or the old sqldev for those in the meantime.
Got it – thanks!
Hi Jeff,
What is the earliest version of Oracle DB that I can connect to using the SQL Developer Extension for VSCode ? (Would like 8.1.7, but I know it’s very old.) Thank you.
24 years isn’t ‘very old’ in software time frames, it’s prehistoric.
11gR2 is the minVer required for connectivity with all of our tools.
Hi,
While working on SQL developer today morning. I got a wierd output as “PL/SQL procedure successfully completed. Alias sqlvl_int_runme dropped” . I’m not sure why this came. Can you please help me to understand.
Probably something like this.
Hi Jeff,
I’m working on ORDS 22.4 on a server in standalone mode. I have enabled the https with a self signed certificate from openssl. It is working fine with the https://localhost:8443/…… api. but when I tried with the hostname instead of localhost it is throwing me an HTTP 400 error Invalid SNI. I have checked the certificate and made all the necessary changes in the settings.xml file as shown below:
8443
/path/certificate.crt/
/path/private.key/
I made sure that the base name given while creating the certificate is same as the hostname also.
when I tried to use wget –no-check-certificate url with hostname from the server, I’m getting the error as:-
-The Certificate owner does not match the host name
-Error 400 Bad request
Please help me with this.
Sorry, not my area of expertise. There are a few threads discussing this topic on our forums.